Showing posts with label Indo-European. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Indo-European. Show all posts

Tuesday, February 10, 2026

Quick note

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2026/01/new-iron-age-samples-from-southeastern.html

From the post's author in the comments: "I think the levels of Germanic ancestry in Eastern Europe might be significantly underestimated, especially the Germanic admixture dating to the early Middle Ages.

It's likely that even Balts have non-trivial levels of Germanic autosomal ancestry, and they cluster east of Poles in intra-European PCA."

That would, of course, make perfect sense, since we know already that both during the Migration period, and afterwards during the Viking age and the founding of the Rurikid dynasty that there was significant Germanic intrusion into the area. While they seem to have mostly lost their languages eastward of a certain point, and in the 20th century, millions of Germans were literally expelled from areas in the east that they'd lived in for centuries, the point is that they did, in fact, live there for centuries, and while they maintained some cultural cohesion, there was no doubt plenty of admixture. Especially for those who became culturally invisible over time, like the East Germanic peoples and the late stage Vikings who founded the Rus. 

Monday, August 14, 2023

Tree

I almost forgot that I created this blog! I don't post enough on this subject to really justify it. I'll see how it goes. Probably I'll end up folding it back into my main blog, unless I start posting a lot more on this topic. But I haven't seen a lot of new information that's interesting enough to justify commenting on it. So, nothing has happened, and there's nothing new to say that I haven't said plenty of times before. Quiet, quiet, quiet.

I did, however, stumble across his paper. It's not new, but I'm not really in the loop with everything that's new, and much of what I am in the loop on is genetic relative, not linguistic. But, of course, since Indo-European studies is fundamentally the study of a cultural and linguistic group, genetics is a useful tool, but linguistics constantly is part of the conversation too. What we want to discover, of course, is that historical, archaeological, linguistic, and genetic fields of inquiry all point to the same or at least similar conclusions. Which I think it mostly does, at at least a high level. But many of the details will vary and flex over time.

https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/ling-2020-0060/html?lang=en

Here's the abstract:

In this article we present a new reconstruction of Indo-European phylogeny based on 13 110-item basic wordlists for protolanguages of IE subgroups (Proto-Germanic, Proto-Slavic, etc.) or ancient languages of the corresponding subgroups (Hittite, Ancient Greek, etc.). We apply reasonably formal techniques of linguistic data collection and post-processing (onomasiological reconstruction, derivational drift elimination, homoplastic optimization) that have been recently proposed or specially developed for the present study. We use sequential phylogenetic workflow and obtain a consensus tree based on several algorithms (Bayesian inference, maximum parsimony, neighbor joining; without topological constraints applied). The resulting tree topology and datings are entirely compatible with established expert views. Our main finding is the multifurcation of the Inner IE clade into four branches ca. 3357–2162 bc: (1) Greek-Armenian, (2) Albanian, (3) Italic-Germanic-Celtic, (4) Balto-Slavic–Indo-Iranian. The proposed radiation scenario may be reconciled with diverse opinions on Inner IE branchings previously expressed by Indo-Europeanists.

And here's the tree.


Just based on comparing that with historical and archaeological known data, it would strongly suggest that the reddish branch in the middle is the one strongly influenced by the Bell Beakers, or at least linguistically derived primarily from the Bell Beakers.

What is also glaringly missing, but I don't know what else to do about it other than manually speculate where they might belong, are the languages that didn't survive in full enough form to be statistically analyzed, like Dacian, Thracian, Illyrian, and phantom languages like Nordwestblock, or whatever was in the British Isles before the arrival of Celtic, etc. The Ukrainian/Russian steppes is also confusing, because numerous archaeological cultures spread over the area that were derived variously from Yamnaya or eastern Corded Ware. It wasn't until considerably later, Sintashta at the earliest, that we get to the point where a linguistic branch and an archaeological culture can be linked with some confidence on the eastern front. 

Of course, Thracian, Dacian and who know what other paleo-Balkan languages may well have moved westward from the steppe at a much later date than the initial Corded Ware incursions into Central and Western Europe. Quite probably there are who knows how many branches that "should" be showing on the tree, but we literally know nothing about them because they were replaced by some other linguistic branch long before we had a chance to even hear of them much less actually learn any details about the language itself. Maybe we should just be glad that we even know about Thracian, Dacian, Illyrian, Phrygian, etc. at all rather than being frustrated that we don't know more about them. What language branch were the Lusitanians on? or the Bronze Age Po valley, or the Nuragic civilization, etc? Quite probably branches that we only barely suspect existed, like "para-Celtic" or something like that. Or equally likely some branch that we don't even suspect, that was a lingerer from the early Corded Ware expansion, or Bell Beaker expansion, etc. but which didn't stick around long enough to be identified by us. Looking at the vast territory formerly in the orbit of Thracian, Dacian or Celtic compared to what we have today, we can confidently presume that waves of linguistic (and to a considerable degree) Demic replacement was normal, even before some of our ancestors started writing down about it in Greece and Rome.

A similar thing has happened, of course, in North America, although the guilt-tripped, hand-wringing liberals who run our society remain stubbornly ignorant of it. The Crow tribe, for instance, was well-known to have been in Ohio near Lake Erie in the 1700s, before moving up to Manitoba and from there back into the US where they are found today, in Wyoming, the Dakotas, Montana, etc. They don't have a long history on the Great Plains; they were barely there a couple of generations before the white man was. Shoshone and Kiowa Apache were there before the Crow were, but the latter went further southwards, and the former went further westwards. Prior to that, the Shoshone were believed to have been a Great Basin tribe who wandered northward and eastward to be in the Crow's way; part of the Shoshone went southwards, became the Comanche, and then displaced vast numbers of other tribes again in return.

Prior to that... who knows? That's the problem with nonliterate societies that are highly mobile and warlike. We develop this idea that they must have been in the place where we first know of them since time immemorial, only to then move around all over the place once we have written records of them. It seems fundamentally unlikely that their behavior prior to being documented by literate neighbors was different than it was after being documented by literate neighbors, so the more likely scenario is that there was movement, displacement, syncretism and the formation of new confederacies all over the place, and we just have a record of a portion of that. It's unlikely that the proto-Celts were in the same place as the later Celts for thousands of years before spreading across much of Europe; Asia Minor and even north Africa. More likely, they didn't exist at all in a meaningful sense, and they grew up as a subset that developed unique characteristics out of a larger population that was frequently on the move and frequently at war with and overlapping/replacing other neighboring peoples all along.

So when you go to Wyoming, for example, and hear idiots talking about how sacred Devil's Tower, or the Bighorn Medicine Wheel are to these people—who, let's remember, only arrived in the area a few generations before our own people did, it comes across more as a shakedown racket then a meaningful thing to claim.

Tuesday, June 28, 2022

Corded Ware, not Yamnaya

Genos Historia kind of takes credit for this theory. It's really Davidski's theory, and he's been posting the evidence for it on his blog Eurogenes for a long time; a blog in which I know that Genos Historia reads and comments on. Forgive the kind of hoaky and long-winded delivery. I actually think Genos Historia is doing some good work with his own PCA analysis, but for the most part, he's just repeating theories from more academically serious men.

He's also making slightly too strong of a statement. While at an autosomal (i.e. whole genome) level Yamnaya and Corded Ware are very similar, they are not completely the same, and they are also not just differentiated by some excess EEF admixture. Corded Ware also have some excess WHG admixture, which admittedly might have come via EEF peoples such as the Vinca or Cucuteni-Tripilia cultures. Many of the later Corded Ware populations also absorbed SHG population groups as they entered Northern Europe, especially the Fennoscandia area, and daughter cultures of the Corded Ware, like the Nordic Bronze Age, show significant levels of admixture from this group.

In any case the proto-Corded Ware peoples had a slightly different economic system, and lived in a different ecological zone, and did so from the beginning. Yamnaya became, over time, so obligatorily steppe-based and transhumance focused that they could not and did not have any sedentary domesticated animals with them, especially pigs.

Monday, September 20, 2021

Coming soon...

I found that posts about history, prehistory, archaeology, linguistics and genetics--especially archaeogenetics--related to my interest in the origins and dispersals of the Indo-European people were frequent enough on my more Journal-like blog to merit their own blog. This is just the placeholder for now, but new posts will be forthcoming shortly.

WHGs, EHGs, and EEF

 Text from a twitter post. Phenotypes and Genetics of Europe’s Founding Populations Modern Europeans descend from the fusion of three major ...